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Henry Schlatman

gwb-2004,
You said "God is God and he never changes" to whom's god are you refering to in what time in history? If peoples view of god was the same since the beginning of time than why are there so many different types of religions and versions of the Bible which hold widely seperate views on "God's Laws?"

Just for clarification, how mahy years have you studied theology? For even Jesus stated (paraphrasing) that although many will seek me and go to church, they will not find me. Hate for your fellow man on any level is not a quality Jesus approves of.

Our Founding Fathers took great steps to write the Declaration of Independence which states that we find this country on "Laws of Nature" not the bible so how can you tell a lie when you can read it for yourselve? Do yourselve a favor and go to your flock's leader who is educated in theology and ask them to explain to you why the protestents separated from the Catholic church some 500 years ago.

wasted potential

Rocket - Just got back from a nice weekend away. There have been several posts since you answered my last one, but I wanted make a clarification. You made the point that I want a Christian nation, however, that is not what I stated. I stated that our country has been founded on Judeo-Christian values, not on one church. Heck, the Christian church has hundreds of separate denomoninations that won't mingle with each other, so it would be impossible to pick a state religion.

Many of those who first came to this country from England did so to escape the tyranny of the Church of England and have religious freedom. This is why they gave us the freedom of religion and were against the establishment of a state church. In a free society, people need to be free to believe however they want or not believe however they want.

That being said, the majority of this country has historically been and presently is impacted by Judeo-Christian values. This is not to say they are all Orthodox Jews or Christians, but that the values found in these religions have infiltrated the public consciousness and have guided our feelings on equality, freedom and laws.

With that being said, many feel that there is a strong movement in this country to replace the Judeo-Chrisitian values with secular ones, like those of Western Europe. In a free society, each of us is free to choose which set of values we believe to be more relevant and which should guide our nation going forward.

Those like me believe that the historical model of Judeo-Christian values should continue to guide our overall worldview in this country as to its lawmaking and interpretation. Many would say that this is an antiquated, superstitous view of life and needs replaced by the humanistic, secular worldview. This is the debate.

My only problem with how this struggle is being fought is that it seems like the secularists are trying to bring their worldview to this country without following the prescribed ways given in the constitution. For example, new "rights" which are found to be under the constitution suddenly by a court (never found to be a "right" before that), while no new legislation on the issue has been passed. I won't list the cases off, but they are legion in regards to this. Judges now think they can change the law themselves, performing the function of the legislature.

Here is my point of view - if abortion was to be legalized and granted as a "right" under the constitution 184 years after it was written, then it should have been legislated as an ammendment to the constitution, following the prescribed methods for doing so.

This is the way Prohibitionists revised the constitution in the early part of the 20th century and it is also the way prohibition was removed. Neither side just went to a federal judge sympathetic to their case and asked him to make new laws. They followed the constitutional process for changing laws in this country. So, homosexual marriage being recognized by the states needs to either be left to the states, or an amendment to the constitution is needed to govern all of the states.

My cynnical side tells me the reason that secularists are going about changing our country's laws through the courts and not the legislature is that they realize they do not have the popular will of the people to do so. They hope to incrementally change the country into their likeness over time through court rulings. Folks like myself are beginning to recognize this and that is why the issue of judicial nominations and Judeo-Christian values have been so much more in the forefront over the last 15 years.

Actually, an amendment banning gay marriage is not needed at this time, as no federal court has decreed that homosexuals have this right. The DOMA already states that states do not have to recognize the unions of gay couples made in other states. An amendment to the constitution to acknowledge gay marriage is what is needed now, if that is the will of the people.

To my friends on the right who want to ridicule and demean homosexuals and those who believe that gay marriage should be acknowledged I say this - You are hurting our argument, not helping it. If this argument is truly about bigotry and hatred, then we are nothing but the dim-witted rubes that the leftists in the Northeast and West Coast believe us to be. Being consistent with Judeo-Christian values means that we must love all people. We do not have to love what they do, but each one of us has done and is capable of horrible things. So please, tone down the hateful stuff and engage the other side with love and intelligence. That is the only way we will win hearts and minds on this or any other issue.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

GWB: "Phoenician, I am not saying you have to accept Jesus as your savior. In my beliefs Jesus is the only way to enter into heaven. I have nothing against peaceful Muslims. They have a right to beleive what they want. I just belieive they are wrong."

Indeed - "believe". And yet you want to impose your idea of marriage on those who do not share your belief.

And don't give me any bull about how allowing gays to marry imposes their beliefs on you. Somebody else's marriage doesn't affect you, any more than someone else eating non-kosher food affects Jews, or someone else failing to pray five times a day affects Muslims. If you object to gay marriage, then don't marry one.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

GWB: "Both are equally important. Because the laws of the constitution are based from the bible."

Reaaaaaaaaally?

Please tell us how you reconcile the First Amendment and the First Commandment. We'll all be fascinated to see you do this.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Laura: "Phoenician in a time of Romans, just because not all the commandments were used to base our laws on doesn't mean the founding fathers didn't use some of them to base our law on."

Laura, only 3 are reflected in law. 3 out of 10. And those three are the ones which EVERY large community includes, written into the Code of Hammarubi for the love of Marduk! You *do* realise the Code of Hammurabi predates the Bible?

The Ten Commandments are NOT reflected in American law. Three of them have echoes in US law because they refer to necessary social preconditions (do not murder, steal or lie in court), but the seven ones relating to religion and Christian moral codes have no such echo in law.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Laura: "I hate to keep repeating myself but you don't understand the sanctity of marriage. Marriage is special and if you allow it to be corrupted it is NO LONGER SPECIAL."

Wasn't it corrupted when the courts allowed whites and blacks to marry?

Phoenician in a time of Romans

An open letter from the Blue Staters to the Red Staters.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/07/blue_state_to_reds/

There's a bit in there about "Christian values" which certainly seems relevant to the "Christians" posting here who don't seem to know what the ten commandments are.

Henry Schlatman

Phoenician in time of Romans,
As a Blue in a Red State, I hope who every wrote that article still keeps the faith. Someday people in the South and Mid West will wake up and realize that EVERY AMERICAN CAN BE A MILLIONARIE if we can just get raid of the RAPITALIST (one who worships the God Almighty Dollar) PARTY that is now in control of this country.

I ask you chirstians to open your eyes to the fact that as a leader Bush and your Republican party leaders has not done one thing to help the poor left themselve up out of poverty. While Bush's friends have made over $40 trillion dollars off the backs of your labor. To seek the truth just look at how much money is generated by this economy as profits.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Again thanks. Being Liberial means that we want to put "We the People" who are both workers and consumers in front of "We the Corporation" because "We the People" make most of the profit generated by Our Government balancing the Two Parties.

Linda

Has anyone read Tammy Bruces "The Death of Right and Wrong"? Like it or not there is an intentional agenda by the radical gay left to change our society to suit their will, starting with our children through the educational system among other schocking ways. Unforunately, non-radical gay couples get stigmatized by the nutbags just as normal christians get stigmatized by the nutbags. These poor people just want to live their lives peacefully and I don't blame them. Perhaps if more energy were spent confronting the radical left instead of all gays, we'd all be happier with the results. The normal gays should pick their fights with the radical gays, not straight people trying to protect ourselves and our children from the radical lefties.

L.D.S. Laura

Phoenician in a time of Romans, NO. There is nothing in the bible about interracial marriage. There is, however, much about gays. I hate to sit here and quote scripture but I guess I'm going to have to. Lev. 18:22 and 20:13 Thou shall not lie with mankind....it is an abomination. Deut. 23:17 there shall be no...sodomite of the sons of Israel. Rom 1:27 men...burned in their lust one toward another. 1 Tim. 1:10 them that defile themselves with mankind. Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrha...going after strange flesh. Try finding one scripture that says interracial marriage is wrong. You can't. But the Lord has made it clear that homosexuality is wrong. And as the mother of 7 children 6 of which are mixed race, I really resent you even trying to make that kind of comparison. I also have one child who is gay and he knows that we love him but we DO NOT agree with his life style.

Henry, Again thanks. Being Liberial means that we want to put "We the People" who are both workers and consumers in front of "We the Corporation" because "We the People" make most of the profit generated by Our Government balancing the Two Parties. Who do you think creates the jobs so the we the people can live the life style we want? Conseratives don't put corporations in front of people, we are realist. We understand that jobs need to be created in order for people to work. We also understand that it is not the governments responsibility to "take care of people" who have the ability to take care of themselves. You guys have spent years making certain sections of our population think of themslves as victims. And frankly, I'm sick of it! You are only a victim if you allow yourself to be. I went through a rough patch and had to live in government subsidized housing. I looked around and said to myself, I don't want to live this way. I pulled my self up by my bootstraps. I didn't ask anyone to help me. I did it by myself. It was not easy, in fact it was one of the hardest things I ever did, but I did it because I was motivated. True, the government has a responsibility to the people who truly can't work, but they are a small portion of the people asking the government for help. Only when we create more jobs will people be able to pull themselves out of poverty. And only when they stop seeing themselves as victims and start seeing themselves as children of God. And as Americans. I teach my children that first and foremost they are children of God. Second they are human beings and third they are Americans. That's it. And they know they are loved even if we don't agree with some of their choices.

Julie

America can no longer claim to be great or good. It is simply powerful and grubby, much like the old Soviet Union. It can no longer claim to be a beacon for the world. Much, indeed most of the world despises what it has become. And it can no longer claim to be an example for others.

America can no longer claim to be great or good. It is simply powerful and grubby, much like the old Soviet Union. It can no longer claim to be a beacon for the world. Much, indeed most of the world despises what it has become. And it can no longer claim to be an example for others.

Phoenician in the time of Romans: How appropriate. I do remember my Ancient History class taken back in times of most likely your elders, as I probably am. Rome burned sweetie. It burned because of decay and decadence...the lack of morals, and no family values. We all know the confusion Democrats are having now on "what do values mean?" Now to your quote. I see America greater now because she stood up and said "enough". Enough puffing up and gathering weapons to send to terrorists. Enough of the mass graves with bones tinier than matchsticks. Babies within their Mothers' bodies until mowed down by Saddams'henchment. Yes Phonyecian, we were so terrible to overthrow such a kind man. Where was France? Where was the rest of Europe? Where were the Germans? Where were the Russians? Getting fat, rich, and happy on the dead backs of the Iraqi people being thrown in those graves. Their neighbors shut their eyes to the horror. Our President opened his eyes and his heart and did the right thing. I am ONE PROUD AMERICAN. Our boys over there KNOW he did the right thing. We are a still beacon for the world, and those over in Europe that say differently gave up their right to Greatness a long time ago, when they turned a blind eye and their cowardly backs when the screams of the dead and dying were echoing throughout the world. Sit back phonyecian, there are those of us out here that will stand up and fight while your cowardly Rome turns to ashes.

L.D.S. Laura

Julie, WELL SAID!!!! You go girl. lol

initiate debate

Yeah, well done Julie- you completely missed the point of Phoenician's name, didn't you? Remind us why Iraq was invaded again? Remind me who was behind the World trade centre attacks. Remind me who made of video a few days before the election. Remind me who Bush was referring to when he said "It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him", remind me who it was that he said "I am truly not that concerned about him" about. Remind us what the ISG report said, or would you rather I reminded everyone?

L.D.S. Laura

initiate debate, Iraq was invaded because stupid people left over from Clinton got their information wrong. You guys always want to Monday morning quarterback instead of looking at the information Bush had at the time. Nevertheless, we are all safer with Sadam captured. People of Iraq won't have to worry about babies within their Mothers' bodies being mowed down by Saddams'henchment. OBL was behind the World Trade Center bombings (both times) I'm not sure what your point on that is. Bush said he wasn't worried about OBL and THEN said, "He should be worried about us." Something you guys seem to want to ignore. I've said things like that myself. OBL can be the presidents number one concern as far as catching him but OBL should be the one worried, not us. And you will note that we have NOT been attacked since 9/11. Thanks to George Bush who had the courage to stand up and say, "NO MORE." Unlike Clinton who was too busy diddling his intern to pay attention.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Phoenician in a time of Romans, NO. There is nothing in the bible about interracial marriage.

Exodus 34:10-16. Leviticus 19:19.

Certainly it makes as much sense as talking about "Sodom" given Ezekial 16:49, or citing Leviticus 18:22 while ignoring Leviticus 18:19 (or, for that matter, Leviticus 19:19).

And as the mother of 7 children 6 of which are mixed race, I really resent you even trying to make that kind of comparison.

Really? And did you pay attention to Leviticus 12:1-8 when you did so, OR DO YOU ONLY INSIST OTHER PEOPLE ABIDE BY LEVITICUS?

I resent you, madam, for your ignorance and bigotry. A hundred years ago you would have been shunned or lynched for those mixed-race children, JUST AS GAYS TODAY ARE SHUNNED OR KILLED FOR WHO THEY LOVE.

You are the worst kind of fool - someone who has profited by the growth of tolerance in a secular society, yet insists that they need not support that secular society to tolerate others.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Julie: "Rome burned sweetie. It burned because of decay and decadence...the lack of morals, and no family values."

Back when I studied history from actual historians, they concluded it collapsed because of increased inequality, and capture of politics by self-interested aristocratic groups. What textbook are YOU using?

Julie: "Now to your quote. I see America greater now because she stood up and said "enough"."

Really? Pity about this then, isn't it?

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/257979a6-30f4-11d9-a595-00000e2511c8.html

Julie: "We are a still beacon for the world"

It is this image that defines America now for the rest of the world for the foreseeable future. This is what America means, this represents American values, this is what the rest of the world thinks about whenever Americans preach about how good their country is.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/iraqis_tortured_wp-h.jpg

Your Founding Fathers must be so proud of you people...

Henry Schlatman

Laura,
Our City and County Charters; Our State Constitutions; and Our United States Constitution gives "We the People" the right to regulate any and all commerce. This right DEMANDS THAT OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS either regulate businesses to pay a livable wage or suppliment such things as low income housing, fuel costs (like the one Bush is giving truck drivers to keep their fuel cost at 2000 levels), and the list goes on and on.

By the why, Low income in this country currently is $45,000.00/yr. for a family of four. Look up your local/state CHAP to find out how this low wages are forcing our government to spend billions supplimenting financial institutions by giving grants so people can get into homes.

The deregulation of businesses began under Reagan in the 80's when Congress split this country into two economic systems. The plan has set a course of action that has resulted into the management side of business income to increase 500 times more than that of the labor force. So unless we want to become a country of All Chiefs and No Indians, "We the People" better get educated on the facts and the rights of "We the Citizens."

Look back at the economics of the 50' & 60's when the average family of four could own a home, save money, and put their children through school on a single income. Now after years of deregulating business and giving them billions of dollars, we have that same family of four working two or three jobs, having their housing supplimented by the federal government, and borrowing money to the point that 65% of Our GDP goes to paying debt. What a good stewardship and legacy our parents have left us. Is this the better World they promised when they screwed up a prefectly good economy and lifestyle?

By the way, I may be a liberal, but I'm pro-responsible business. For why should "We the People" supplement the wages of employees from companies like Wal-Mart when that company makes millions in profits and shares that with only their stock holders. In the mean time Mom & Pop stores in the community die because they can't offer the same low prices.

As far as I am concerned corporations like that should be put out of business and make way for other Americans to stand up and offer goods and services at a 20-40% profit instead of the 300%+ profits they are doing right now. Thats not liberal nor conservative that is fair business.

L.D.S. Laura

Phoenician in a time of Romans, What version of the bible are you reading????? I read the King James bible and the scriptures you are quoting have NOTHING to do with interracial marriage. They have to do with the cleanliness of a woman after giving birth!!!! And I really don't see why you feel the need to name call. It just shows you don't have an argument. I have been very careful to respect the opinions of others at this site. You demean yourself and your views when you have to resort to calling people names. Get a grip.

melior

Two brave US Marines were martyred today in the jihad against the infidel. They will sit at the hand of Our Lord.
Inshallah!

L.D.S. Laura

Henry, I'm not sure what your point is in the first couple of paragraphs but as for companies like Walmart, that's free enterprise baby! They are sucessful because they give the consumer what they want, goods they need at a low price. If they don't treat their employees right I wonder why so many people work for them and work their way up to management. They could always go work for another company that treats them better if they were really being treated so badly. We have more first time homeowners now then ever before. If people chose to live in a expensive housing area like L.A. or San Diego, then they might have to work several jobs. They could always move to a less expensive area but they make choices. We live in an area outside San Diego so that we can afford to have a nice home and I can still stay home with my children. It's all about choices. If we didn't have companies like Walmart, unskilled labor wouldn't have anywhere to work. Unless they want to work in the fields picking fruit. We need corporation to create jobs. You seem to be a socialist and that hasn't been real sucessful anywhere in the world. We are the great nation we are in part due to free enterprise.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Laura: "I read the King James bible and the scriptures you are quoting have NOTHING to do with interracial marriage. "

Learn to read properly. Exodus 34:10-16.

Phoencian in a time of Romans

Laura: "They have to do with the cleanliness of a woman after giving birth!!!!"

And did you keep those commandments, Laura? I mean, you seem hell-bent on inflicting Leviticus on gays - do you keep it yourself?

Henry Schlatman

Laura,
If Wal-mart is such a good company than why did Californa overwhlemingly vote against allowing them to build a store in your state? Check out your local Charters and States Constitution it is Our Elected Officials Duty to either regulte commerce or tax the citizens to ensure Equal and Fair access to Commerce. Today's economic system falls far from that. Want to pay lower taxes than force your local government to regulate your business. That is their duty and your tool not bashing those people because they serve at your will.

As far as people working three or four jobs, what happened to family values? Last time I checked there is still only 24 hours in a day. Given that it cost approx. $800.00/wk to live ay the Standard of Living Our Government has set Our Economy at and the fact that most jobs pay only $400.00/wk, I am forced to work over 18 hours a day to make that kind of money. Knowing that the average person requires 8 hours a day in sleep, I'm already up to 26 hours a day. Adding the fact that I want to enjoy three meals a day, take a walk, and watch the conservative news that adds an additional 3-4 hours a day. Therefore, using your logic We must increase the day to 30 hours a day for me to have a minimum life. All because I choose to live in a place that has running water.

Or are you ready to releave yourself of such convinences as food, retail shops, and police/emergency services? The people who provide these services and goods so you can afford to put a few pennys away are slaves because they either work for these low wages or die. Why would I not take a job that I can at least feed myself once a day when I could just as easily go rob my neighbor? Maybe because I have something called Pride and Self Respect. Something I find lacking in many people who have never known what it is like to be homeless and wanting a meal.

If this is such a free enterprise country than why does the Republican Party oppose Unions? It should be in EVERY AMERICANS BEST INTEREST TO ENSURE THAT ANYONE WORKING CAN MAKE A DECENT LIVING. OTHERWISE, THEY CAN NOT HOLD PEOPLE FROM DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO SURVIVE! Just ask the citizens in Saudia where they have seen their per capital income go from $17,000+/yr in 1980 to less than $8.000.00/yr in 2000. Want to bet on what people in this country would do if that happened here?

FYI: Wages of non-skilled labor has been kept low because Our Government keeps allowing Illegal Aliens into Our Country. Source: Greenspan

Therefore, if the republicans really are that worried about the poor in this country force them to fine every business owner who hire these people a $100,000.00 per employee and enforce it. Right now, the repubilcan lead congress and Bush want to give these people a free pass while many Americans born is this country have to suffer because they refuse to do anything. In fact, your local immagration office refuses to do anything about stating they have higher priorities.

PS I bash both sides equally as well due to the fact that with over 8,000 combined years of education Our Congress still can't find their way out of a paper bag.

Linda

Gosh Henry, do you hate all wealthy people or just corporate executives? How about celebrities and atheletes? They make an awful lot of money without adding much value to society.
My sister works two jobs just to "make ends meet". My niece graduates high school this year and my sister hasn't saved a dime for her college education. BUT... she does own two SUV's, just remodeled her kitchen, buys new furniture every two or three years, put a built in pool in, takes a vacation once a year and has owned two horses for years that she can't ride because one threw her and she injured her back. Do you have any idea how much it costs to raise horses? But she works HARD, she DESERVES these things because they make her HAPPY! And she voted for Kerry cause Bush let gas go over $2 a gallon.

Linda

Henry, you do have a point about illegal immigrants. That is my biggest problem with Bush. I fear the terrorists that can get over here as easily as the illegals. But what American's are going to fill the jobs that they fill? In the old days teenagers would be out there working in the fields, cleaning dishes in restaurants, working as maids in hotels. My husband cut grass in high school and bussed tables and cleaned dishes all through college. Today I can't even get the lazy kid across the street to shovel my driveway. I fail to see how illegal aliens are making any Americans suffer. Americans don't want those jobs.

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