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Spider Jerusalem


>>>>As an *American*, I fear rampant voter fraud, too.

The wisest statement in here tonight (excluding words from yours truly of course).

Each party is so ready to blame the other. Cheating isn't exclusive to one political party. It belongs to the human condition. I've heard many people say that Republicans aren't human, but I still believe this rule applies to them.

Ronald Reagan

I think that's a good point, Henry. US forces were not shy about targeted air strikes.

Kay suggested there were about 80 facilities that they knew about which held very significant quantities of conventional weapons.

wasted potential

>>>>As an *American*, I fear rampant voter fraud, too.

Good - I guess we all can agree on that then. As to the voting systems, I don't know enough about the congressional voting record to comment intelligently (I know many of you will have a comeback for that one), but I agree that it would be nice to have a national, standardized voting system. However, this system needs to include a standardized way of registering and then ID when you show up at the polls.

To demonstrate the antiquity of this, I'll give you an example: My wife and I have moved 5 times in the 10 years we have been married, but always in the state of Ohio. Now, I know in 2002, I could have voted in 3 of those locations, maybe all 5. Now, if I was a lazy son of a gun, I could have just called up a buddy of mine and told him where to vote, as you don't have to have ID to vote in Ohio. Just sign your name where you are supposed to and vote.

In other states, you can register the day of voting and you don't need ID to do that either. I think it is in Minnesota where someone can just say - Oh yeah, I know that guy - and you can register and vote the same day. Dead people stay on the rolls for who knows how long, so any enterprising individual can just go through the obituary records for the last couple of years and travel from precint to precint voting early and often.

Am I the only one who thinks this, or is this just more dim whittedness on the part of a backward Christian conservative?

wasted potential

Henry & RR - I will begin by stating I am not a military or weapons expert and I do not have any connections to the intellgence community. However, one plausible explanation that I thought of as to why we did not bomb this site could be that they feared that biological and chemical weapons were stored there and were not sure what the effect bombing would have on those sites.

Now, I am not saying the Russians took them or anything like that, just saying they may have feared they were there. Is this a plausible reason, or is my ignorance on this subject showing through?

Jeffraham Prestonian

wasted: "However, this system needs to include a standardized way of registering and then ID when you show up at the polls."

Well, see, the only nearly-foolproof way around most of the political problems we have today is something that REALLY riles up the fun-fun-fundies. Yes, I'm talkin' "Beastmark, Inc." The answer to voter fraud AND illegal cash contributions, all in one swell foop!

So, given that we're not likely to accept implanted ID chips and its corresponding master database of biometric data, I think TruVote is a more pragmatic (and nearly foolproof) way to go. In short, TruVote uses touchscreen machines, but also displays a corresponding paper ballot, sealed from the public, for the voter to view & confirm. The paper tally is checked against the collected ballot totals in the database, as a checksum. If recounts are needed, the paper version, still locked in the machine, is both human and machine readable.
.

wasted potential

Well, you seem like a bright guy, so I will take your word on the voting system, seems like a good system. The difficulty would be to get the state, local and federal governments to all agree on something like this and how it is implemented would be an exceptional challenge.

I must admit I am not ready to take the mark of the beast just yet, but is it too much to require our different government agencies to talk to each other? For example, if a home owner sells their home and moves to a new residence, this is known by different aspects of the government. You know, the title office, the water department, etc ... knows a transaction took place. This would not be the case for renters.

The coroner's office definitely knows when people die, so why not just pass that info along to the board of elections?

Also, is it considered discriminatory to require photo ID to vote? I realize fake IDs can be obtained, but the cheaters would have to definitely work harder at it than they do today.

I guess I view the voting booth issue as non-discriminatory to either side, all Americans voting on those machines will be discriminated against unfairly on their votes. The fear of people "playing the system" as I just laid out for you (done to perfection by the Daley machine) bothers me more.

wasted potential

Jeffraham - so the Intel community, was the tape their big thing, or is there something else? Let me ask you do you think it was legit or do you think that political operatives hoped to scare people one way or another? I must admit, I don't think the DNC would think that by having the terrorists say that they hate Bush, it would help Kerry somehow in the battleground states. Republicans would have nothing to gain by doing this either.

If you are not going to tell me what the Intel community is going to roll out, can you at least tell me how you have obtained such information? I would be curious.

bushfan

OH MY GOD!

Tucker announced tonite at American University that he will not vote for Bush!

We are so screwed.

Jeffraham Prestonian

wasted: "so the Intel community, was the tape their big thing, or is there something else?"

Is it Monday, 1630, yet...?

"Let me ask you do you think it was legit or do you think that political operatives hoped to scare people one way or another? I must admit, I don't think the DNC would think that by having the terrorists say that they hate Bush, it would help Kerry somehow in the battleground states. Republicans would have nothing to gain by doing this either."

I can't speak to the motivations behind the tape -- and I doubt it has any impact whatever. The whole "terrorist boogemen! Alert! Alert!" thing is laughable to most -- which is to be expected in the Home of the Brave.

I *can* however say where I *suspect* it came from, knowing how the story broke... follow the trail back to a cat at ABC named Chris Vlasto. Bet ya my last dollar he's the guy that got a copy of it to Drudge.

"If you are not going to tell me what the Intel community is going to roll out, can you at least tell me how you have obtained such information? I would be curious."

It's a hunch, man -- no solid, irrefutable info, here. The Bushites have made NO friends in the intel community, and I'm sure daddy tried to explain to junior what a bad idea that would turn out to be. As usual, the Higher Father drowned out the Lower Father, and here we are...
.

wasted potential

Jeffraham - "As usual, the Higher Father drowned out the Lower Father, and here we are..."

What does that mean?

wasted potential

Jeffraham - "It's sad to see you toss your obvious intellect aside because you caught the pom-poms yesterday, wasted."

Tell you what, it will seem strange to you, but that rally did have an impact on me and the rest of us here in our little community yesterday. I was blown away by how charged up people were. When the President came out to hail to the chief, you could not hear the music or anything else, just deafening screaming, cheering, etc ... It lasted for about 5 minutes before Zell Miller could get everyone quite enough for him to introduce the President. Then it was more insane screaming.

I mean, you would have thought the Beattles came to town. I actually thought the reception was a bit much, but I was encouraged to see the fervor in Bush's support.

As for the pom-poms, even though I was only about 10 feet from where he spoke, I did not get to shake George's hand. He went to the other side and Laura Bush came to our side. I was struck by Laura. Think what you will of the President, Laura is a class act. The way she took time with all of the young girls and children really shocked me.

Now Zell didn't shake hands. He might be stumping for Bush, but methinks he is still a little uncomfortable pressing the flesh with us Republicans.

Anyway, I am not sure how the whole abortion/Christian thing got going, but I was surprised and appreciated your comments during the fray. I don't care what Zell says about you guys, you're not all bad :)

Ronald Reagan

wasted potential: I'm no military buff either, so the idea of not bombing the sites for fear dispersing or triggering WMDs sounds reasonable to me

On the issue of voter fraud, the liberal group Demos has a number of informative reports. Here's one

http://www.demos-usa.org/pubs/EDR_-_Securing_the_Vote.pdf

There's good factual content here, even those who dont't share Demos's objectives.

On a related point, NORC at the University of Chicago did superb work on the Florida ballots. Reports in 2002 and 2003 were completely submerged by current events. Here's the link:

http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/fl/index.asp

joe mcgee

Bush wore a wire at the debates.

Proof.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/29/bulge/index.html

Jeffraham Prestonian

wasted -- On the "Higher/Lower Father" thing... that's a reference to Wooward's book (can't recall which of the two Bush books, but probably the second one), where he asked Bush, prior to the invasion, if he'd discussed the Iraq invasion with his dad. Bush answered something along the lines of, "I listen to a Higher Father." It kind of fits with others' accounts of what Bush thinks of his dad and HIS presidency. So if 41 told 43 not to piss off the CIA, 43 prob'ly did it on purpose... much to his eventual demise.
.

Spider Jerusalem

wasted -

The excellent comment from Jeffraham - "As usual, the Higher Father drowned out the Lower Father, and here we are..."

It goes back the Woodward book. Bush was asked if he talked to his father before the invasion of Iraq and he said "he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appeal to." This struck many people as odd since Bush 1 is not only W's father but also the only other President in history to go to war in Iraq.

Spider Jerusalem

Color me redundant.

Jeffraham Prestonian

joe mcgee -- Who cares about the wire? Whoever was feeding him lines, if such were even true, wasn't doing a very good job, and/or Bush wasn't conveying them in a way that had a positive outcome for him. It's deader than Russians carting RDX to Syria, dude. Move on.
.

herenow

Someone posted earlier...

Could you answer the question the President couldn't? That being, can you name a mistake he has made that got him to this point: so great on 9/12, so vulnerable right now?


I realize probably most of you folks are not really interested in this... but here is a list of 100 mistakes made by this administration. There are links to news articles etc. Some subjects could probably be looked at differently, but most definitely are legitimate questions and overall point to a serious gap in credibility.
At least in my opinion.


(heres the link... http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041108&s=facts

It is worth considering though. You could add that the war is now estimated to cost $225billion. (after this additional $70billion is added) Also 1100+ US men and women and 7-10000 injured. Plus there are estimates of as many as 100 000 Iraqi's killed. Who knows how many injured.

You could also add this "explosive issue". The fact that the government cannot explain exactly what happened is the point. If Iraq was such a dangerous threat, would you not think that weapons such as 350tonnes of the most lethal explosives on the planet would not have been secured? And honestly... who knows how many weapons were looted from locations that were supposedly under US control but not actually monitored.

Etc.

The point is that there are LOTS of questions. I cannot understand how/why so many people rationalize and justify what has been done to this country in the last 4 years.

If nothing else... look at all the questions revolving around the actual voting system this year... under this administrations watch. If these people cannot even provide 1 person = 1 vote, then what principles do they stand for.

It really is as simple as that.

Spider Jerusalem

I have a thought.

The world view of the United States is shit. No matter what any of you say, losing friends in the world is not a positive thing even if it's France. But at this point, the world believes the garbage we are flinging is a result of our government. A vote for Bush validates what he is doing in the world and by giving him a stamp of approval we are all dragged down with him. I know the argument ~ it's not a popularity contest, blah blah. But that argument is bullshit. America loses power when we are not respected. Leading is not just about making "strong decisions" ~ it's also about communication and, in that, we have certainly failed both at home and abroad.

Jeffraham Prestonian

wasted: "Anyway, I am not sure how the whole abortion/Christian thing got going, but I was surprised and appreciated your comments during the fray."

No appreciation necessary -- you'd do the same, I'm sure. We have similar personal beliefs on this, but different ideas about how to deal with it. I respect that as an honest disagreement that neither of us will sway, and I'm okay with that.
.

RocketPunch

Spider, big fan. Loved your work with the Smiler. :)

There was a good article this morning that focused on the subject you bring up. I don't have the link right now but here is a bit of the article.

A Hole in the Heart
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

...

I have been struck by how many foreign dignitaries have begged me lately for news that Bush will lose. This Bush team has made itself so radioactive it glows in the dark. When the world liked Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan, America had more power in the world. When much of the world detests George Bush, America has less power. People do not want to be seen standing next to us. It doesn't mean we should run our foreign policy as a popularity contest, but it does mean that leading is not just about making decisions - it's also the ability to communicate, follow through and persuade.

If the Bush team wins re-election, unless it undergoes a policy lobotomy and changes course and tone, the breach between America and the rest of the world will only get larger. But all Mr. Bush and Dick Cheney have told us during this campaign is that they have made no mistakes and see no reason to change.


RocketPunch

Did anyone catch The Daily Show tonight? I just checked it out on the ol' TIVO and I was happy to see they hit all the points that have been bugging me over the past few days. Very entertaining. And Zogby called it for Kerry ... for whatever thats worth.

Do the Hardcore Bush supporters like The Daily Show? I think it trys to keep the comedy even but, in fairness, Bush does give them so much more material to work with. ;)

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Jeffrahem: "Look at it this way: If the French had decided to come here in 1775, to help liberate the colonies from Mother England, and they ended up killing a bunch of folks, even unintentionally, just trying to live their lives here in the "new world," don't you think there'd have been colonials kicking some serious French butt? Wouldn't they have said, "Gee, the King's out of the picture now, but these Frenchies keep hangin' out here, rousting people out of bed and taking them away in the middle of the night. I wonder why they're sticking around? Let's get the guns."

You forgot to mention torturing Americans. Making them eat brie, or watch Jerry Lewis movies, or some other insidious Frenchie horror.

Let us be thankful that Americans are more efficient than the Frenchies when it comes to this sort of thing.

http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/05/and_in_my_thirs.html

herenow

And also I wanted to add... It is not that I am saying not to vote for Bush. I just do not understand why it is so close; why there is so much support for him. I have been following this for months now... and actually I do not even live in the States.

I realize many people have doubts about Kerry, and some may be legitimate. But many are just distrations and labels created by the republican campaign and repeated by the media. Like what exactly does a flip-flopper and being the most liberal senetor really mean? And how can he be both? And why does it even matter? And for that matter why does what he said/did or did not do 30 years ago during another crazy war matter?

The point is he has lived a life of politics and service in a positive and honorable fashion. If not distinguished. Probably not even always right.

But this is now. And I cannot at all understand how/why anyone would want 4 more years of the same. Even if Kerry may not be the "perfect" president, he at least will consider things with integrity.

This administration has none. There is no excuse. No one has taken any responsibility for the first 4 years... why does any one think that they will during the next 4. 9/11 was not an excuse to spend 8+trillion dollars. Nor to go to war. Nor to sacrifice liberties or values. It was a reason for America to come 2gether as a nation... US.

Etc.


Lots more could be said. Look around. There is no United in the States of America. The leaders have divided and distracted; taken much from your nation. I feel it when I go visit my grand-parents in Ohio. Everyone is so stressed. Frustrated. So separated.

And these people use that. Can't you tell? They play with faith and fear... not facts. And that is not good.

And that is the point and what this election is truly about.

At least from the outside looking in.

RocketPunch

herenow - Amen, my brotha.

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