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Tell me Phoenician, were you there? Was Kerry there? How could you or Kerry or anyone else possibly say bin laden was in tora bora and escaped? The argument can be argued both ways. The info for this on both sides is equal, one saids he was there, the other says he might have been there. The fact is John Kerry continues to lie to America, John Kerry says "bin laden was there in tora bora and escaped from our troops" he can't prove that, it hasn't been proven, which is why President Bush has not said either he was or wasnt there.



You never answered one poster.
Could you answer please, I am interested in your answer -

7 minutes in the classroom, what could President Bush have done in 7 minutes? You do understand that even if president Bush had excused himself at the exact moment he was told, he would have been taken to safety, his decisions came after there was strong evidence, that it was indeed terrorist. His decisions came from a bunker, a bunker built just for this horrible tragedy, doesn't matter who the President was, they would have been taken to safety first.

Jeffraham Prestonian

johninca: "7 minutes in the classroom, what could President Bush have done in 7 minutes?"

wasted potential asked that, and I answered, "I don't know." My argument wasn't that seven minutes would have saved a single life. My fascination about the whole topic was when a winger with the handle "jaybo" started saying that because bin Laden knew about "The Pet Goat" (as I will forever after refer to that seven minutes), that Moore was a TRAITOR! Gasp! Imagine, showing exactly how Bush reacted in that classroom, in a film, rises to TREASON! Gasp!


My apologies Jeffraham, I understood your post to be an argument about "7 minutes."

Jeffraham Prestonian

johninca: "My apologies Jeffraham, I understood your post to be an argument about '7 minutes.'"

No apology needed, man. I find it an interesting study of the man, that footage, but it's not an indictment. Perhaps of the Secret Service, who I am surprised ALLOWED Bush to stay at the school for 35-40 minutes after the second tower was struck, but not necessarily of Bush. I think anyone seeing it will come away affected, though.


Why America is hated:

The American Left has become increasingly hysterical .

The symptoms of a new, disturbing extremism are manifest in a variety of forums that transcend legitimate political opposition to the war or grassroots politicking to vote out an incumbent party. Last year the comedian Rick Hall played to full houses abroad, performing his newest composition, “Let's Get Together And Kill George Bush.” As the Republicans assembled for their August national convention in New York, a pacifist group known as “United For Peace and Justice,” nevertheless announced its sponsorship of a rather violent-sounding, off-Broadway “guerilla comedy” entitled, “I’m Gonna Kill the President.”

Nicholson Baker, just published Checkpoint. It is an extended dialogue about killing (in a variety of strange ways) George Bush.

Currently in Britain there is released a made-for-television movie of the 9-11 mass murdering—but told from the point of view of one of the 19 suicide-murderers, one Ziad Jarrah who took the controls of Flight 93 and crashed the plane and its occupants into a Pennsylvania field, when the brave passengers aborted his effort to incinerate either the U.S. Capitol building or the White House. The show’s producers—British television’s Channel 4—assure that their “whole ambition was to find out what makes these people tick, rather than to be judgmental.” And being non-judgmental is apparently assured when you hire an ex-terrorist, the IRA convicted murderer (later freed on appeal) Ronan Bennett as the drama’s chief writer.

Michael Moore was seen on television at the recent Democratic convention, prominently seated next to the party’s elder statesmen—like ex-President Jimmy Carter. Democratic legislators were said to have delayed their Congressional votes to have attended the Washington D.C. screening of Moore’s Fahrenheit 9-11, a film whose litany of distortions and creative editing puts it into the same genre of propaganda as Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of Will.

Recently, Moore, the self-proclaimed populist and favorite of the “people’s party,” democrats, scoffed of Americans that, “They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet,” emphasizing that, “Our stupidity is embarrassing.”

"The Guardian Newspaper" calls for an assassination of President Bush, the top Democrtic Party leaders, simply laughed about it.

When the nations people seem to daily say they want their President assassinated, they daily tell untruths only to be proven the next day, they were indeed lies, the mainstream media will cover the most hate events, yet will never broadcast the good of America. The democrats, most in higher positions go abroad and down their own country.

Fittingly, it appears that the Bush haters’ tactics may even be damaging to their own causes. If the 2002 election results are any indication, the American people are not impressed by virulent attacks on the president working to leading them during these troubled times.


And More of Why America is hated:

The U.S. Democratic Party shares a common "internationalist" ideology with Euro-Socialists from Moscow to Paris which is threatening America's traditional understanding of national self-rule.

This "internationalist" ideology demands that the United States subsume its national interests to those of the "international community," and condemns American self-defense initiatives -- sometimes termed America's "go it alone" foreign policy.

America is to only take military action on the approval of the international community, and should ratify all global treaties - from the Kyoto climate protocols to the International Criminal Court -- regardless of the impact upon the economy or laws of the U.S., according to the "internationalist" doctrine.

The politicians of the Democratic Party are thoroughly "internationalist," and are vehement in their position. Expression of the "internationalist" sentiment ranges from John Kerry regularly denouncing U.S. "unilateralism" during his campaign, to the incredible appeal by nine House Democrats for UN oversight of the upcoming presidential election.

Kerry's Euro Campaign

The John Kerry campaign has initiated an unprecedented get-out-the-vote campaign among Americans living abroad to rally support for the "internationalist position, and is working very closely with sympathetic overseas groups including "Democrats Abroad Berlin" and "American Voices Abroad Get Out and Vote Action."

"Overseas votes can make a difference," stated William Downey of "Democrats Abroad Berlin," commenting upon the projected closeness of the 2004 U.S. presidential race in an interview with Deutsche Welle, Germany's official broadcasting service.

"Internationalist" American politicians are not shy about criticizing the United States when on foreign soil, a practice once considered taboo.

U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton toured Europe in June 2003, and in her travels condemned American foreign policy. In her overseas speeches Clinton spoke of her commitment to "American cooperation" with Europe.

The timing of the Democratic Party convention's endorsement of the internationalist theme is ironic, because it coincides with an embarrassing report on the efforts of the "international community" in the troubled Balkan region of Kosovo. Human Rights Watch has just released a report condemning the ineptitude and inactivity of the NATO and UN officials in defending the lives and property of minorities in Kosovo.

The UN's peacekeeping track record ranges from the lackluster to outright failure around the world, from Korea to Somalia to Kosovo. The UN is also in the midst of a multi-million dollar scandal -- known to some as "Kofigate" after the UN Secretary General Kofi Annan - greasing the palms of those in the "international community" at the expense of poverty ridden Iraqis.

The "internationalist" clamor for UN world domination continues unabashed, and, in Europe, rides atop virulent anti-Americanism fueled by an angry leftist media. John Gibson, Fox News host and author of "Hating America - the New World Sport," writes in his book that overseas media coverage of the U.S. is "marked by an off-the-charts level of venom, a scandalous parade of mistaken assumption…an endless font of suspicion, mistrust, and the promulgation of …willful lies."

Russia's Version of "Internationalism" - And a New World Order

Among the most ardent promoters of the "internationalist" worldview is Russia, which supports strengthening the United Nations, establishing a global army for peacekeeping, and a "democratic New World Order."

In a recent address to a meeting of Russia's foreign ambassadors, Russian President Vladimir Putin advocated the "democratic New World Order," but - in contrast to the recent assertions of Democrat Party leaders - Putin specifies that Moscow's version of a New World Order is to "meet the interests" of Russia's "security and economic development," according to the Voice of Russia World Service, the official broadcasting service of the Russian government.

The term "internationalist" is quite elastic. The Communist government of Cuba describes the Marxist folk hero, Che Guevara, as an "internationalist" during the many tributes Havana gives to the fallen guerrilla leader.

Although internationalist sentiments certainly are present in the Republican Party, internationalism has become a battle cry among Democrat leaders, with the resulting dangers to U.S. self-determination and national security.


And More Of Why America is hated:::

FP: Give us some examples of major figures representing anti-Americanism. Tell us, for instance, your thoughts on Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky.

Hollander: Certainly Chomsky is a fine example the purest representative of domestic anti-Americanism. He makes it clear, time and again, that he considers the U.S. the most uniquely evil society; almost by definition the wrongs committed by the U.S. are magnified and elevated.

For instance, of late he said that the American attack on the chemical factory in Sudan was a greater moral outrage than 9/11 -- or something to that effect. He also compared the U.S. to Nazi Germany, called it the foremost or greatest terrorist state etc.

He acts as if his views on the U.S. are self evidently true and expresses surprise if someone disagrees. Moreover, he has been at it non-stop since the 1960s, totally consumed, obsessed by it, endlessly repeats himself, this is all he has to say, that this is the most evil, inhumane, immoral system or society. People sharing his views but incapable of expressing it with the same level of fluency gravitate to him; his enthusiastic audiences confirm his beliefs. I don’t know where it all comes from. He hates Israel just as much.

Michael Moore is a somewhat different case; first of all he is not an academic intellectual, doesn’t come from an adversary subculture. His hatred of American society is not quite as intense as Chomsky's, but similarly visceral. He too gets plenty of sub-cultural support among the Hollywood celebrities and also reaps abundant material rewards.

Gore Vidal, Edward Said and Ramsey Clark are other examples of this kind of pure, visceral anti-Americanism. Abroad we see individuals such as Harold Pinter and Guenter Grass.


Phoenician in a time of Romans

Wonders: "And More of Why America is hated: The U.S. Democratic Party shares a common "internationalist" ideology with Euro-Socialists from Moscow to Paris which is threatening America's traditional understanding of national self-rule."

Yup. It's all the Democrats and their Euro-Socialism. Bloody Commies.

People hating America has nothing at all to do with this sort of thing:



Phoencian in a time of Romans

Jaybo: "OBL has used, verbatim, the same criticisms that the democrats and Michael Moore have used prior to the airing of the tape."

Not only that, he used jets built by American companies to attack American cities!

Jaybo: "OBL sees that he can use the democratic talking points and Michael Moore's movie as a justification for attacking america."

OBL also saw that he could use American jets and air travel as a means to attack America!

Jaybo: "Whether or not either the democrats or Michael Moore intended that to happen doesn't matter. They recklessly threw out allegation after allegation and gave our enemies an advantage."

Curse Michael Moore and the Democrats for giving OBL these talking points, just because they happen to be the truth. Curse Boeing and the American airline companies for giving OBL these jets, just because they happen to be necessary for modern life.

Jaybo: "It proves in the very least, reckless disregard to the interests of America."

I agree fully, Jaybo. It is obvious that the interests of America transcend such mundane worries as free speech, factual reporting, or the truth of what happened on Sept. 11th. Such niceties must be suppressed if they might be adopted by OBL.

We should also ground all jet airplanes, and indeed destroy this technology world wide forever and ever, going back to sea travel via steamers rather than risk OBL using jets against America again.

It is plainly obvious that we should not blame bin Laden. We should, instead, blame people who report the truth of what happened and people who build and fly jet airplanes.


Exactly what I mean Phoenician, you provided a pathetic link, a website I might add, ran by an AMERICAN, I have no way of proof, but I would guarantee this is also one of the democratic America haters. Thank you for proving my very point, Democrats will do and say anything for political advance.

I prefer this link Phoenician,
This is what a murderer of America does, and this is where the democrats step in and assist those very murderers with their hate propaganda.

This is where democrats want to step aside and wait for more pictures, as the ones seen here.
This is where the democrats think war can be won in a short time, with no deaths.


This from the site you linked to Phoencian,

“We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”


So I guess this is the type of site you go to for your information Phoencian? This is the site where that picture was located.

You have proved my point!

Jeffraham Prestonian

wonder -- You HAD a point?


Sure did Jeffraham.

What's a matter? You didn't understand it?

Jeffraham Prestonian

wonder -- No, I guess maybe your hat was obscuring my view of it.


And Phoencian .. this site also states comments made by John Kerry, they support Kerry enough to add his quotes into this American Hate website, where his quotes they say prove their arguments:

“I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. ...

“They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam, in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.”

— John Kerry
Navy lieutenant, leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War
in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
April 23, 1971



And this from the Clinton term:

“If they turn on the radars we’re going to blow up their gdamn (edited by me -wonders-) SAMs [surface-to-air missiles]. They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that’s what’s great about America right now. It’s a good thing, especially when there’s a lot of oil out there we need.”

— U.S. Brig. General William Looney
Washington Post, August 30, 1999
referring, in reality, to the brutal mass-murder
of hundreds of civilian Iraqi men, women and children
during 10,000 sorties by American/British war criminals
in the first eight months of 1999

Clinton was after the oil, it sure is a double-standard when I see so many quotes saying Bush is after oil. It sure is a double standard when I see quotes, that Bush shouldn't be in Iraq.

The fact is, these wars with Iraq have been on going for over 15 years, and they will never cease until freedom is established in Iraq, they have a chance for freedom, it is up to them now to embrace it.

Jeffraham Prestonian

wonder -- Gosh, yeah... just like "The Pet Goat," it's purely un-American to not actively suppress the truth, and hide it away from the American people.


Mind fully reading my post Jeffraham?

I never said "suppress the truth"

My post are in response to the link provided by Phoencian.

But I will add, if this is the type of website you call truths, then you are indeed need of direction. ;-)


Since the "lost seven minutes" seems to be a burning issue for Jeffraham I think I can conclude one thing for sure.

If Sen. Kerry would have been president at the same time at the same location he would have done the follwing....

Secret Service to Kerry; Mr. President, America is under attack.

Kerry; Quick, get my people to take a poll to see what america thinks of this!

Jeffraham Prestonian

wonder: "I never said 'suppress the truth'"

Then, your point wasn't that it was wrong for Vietnam veteran John Kerry to testify in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, representing hundreds of other Vietnam veterans, and relating the experiences they wanted Congress to know?

Funny, I thought that was your point.


Then, your point wasn't that it was wrong for Vietnam veteran John Kerry to testify in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, representing hundreds of other Vietnam veterans, and relating the experiences they wanted Congress to know?

Posted by: Jeffraham Prestonian | November 1, 2004 08:31 AM

Jeffraham, my point was Kerry is a blatant liar, mind telling me why many of his so-called followers were later found to NOT even be Vietnam vets?
Mind telling me how much of Moore's movie was later found to be lies?

You can all it whatever you want, I will call it lies. Your one-liners are getting a bit boring.

On another subject, want to tell me why Former Democrat President Jimmy Carter when in term, started this mess we are in today? Lets see,
If we judge a tree by its fruits, then we must judge Mr. Carter’s four years in the Oval Office by the toxic fruit it produced and seeds of violence it sowed that continue to poison our world.

Mr. Carter ordered the Central Intelligence Agency to stop paying $4 million per year in bribes to the religious Mullahs to tone down their rhetoric. Many of these Muslim leaders disliked the Shah not because he was dictatorial but because the Shah was secular, pro-Western, and expanding the rights and equality of women.

Because Mr. Carter withdrew U.S. support and unleashed Mullah fury, the Shah was toppled. Did this liberate the 3,000 political prisoners? No. The new theocratic dictatorship of the Ayatollah Khomeini put many of these “godless Communists” up against walls alongside more than 20,000 pro-Western Iranians and liquidated them all by firing squads. Women were sent back into servitude. Citizens were arrested merely for owning satellite dishes that could tune to Western programs. And, of course, American diplomats were taken hostage.

The Soviet Union, seeing President Carter’s indecisiveness and incompetence, took advantage of the chaos he had caused to invade Iran’s eastern neighbor Afghanistan, a power grab calculated to open the way for eventual Soviet takeovers in Iran and pro-Western Pakistan.Jimmy Carter’s manly response to this outrageous Soviet aggression was to withdraw our athletes from the 1980 Olympics so that, as in Afghanistan, the Soviets could win without our opposition.

The struggle against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the defeat of this invading Superpower (by U.S. Stinger missiles supplied by Mr. Carter’s successor, the decisive Nobel Peace Prize-deserving President Ronald Reagan) radicalized and trained in the ways of sabotage many Muslim zealots, including Osama bin Laden.

Within a year of the Shah’s ouster, Iran on its western flank was locked into the Iran-Iraq War. Just as the U.S. had sided with Stalin to defeat Hitler, in this war the U.S. sided with secular Iraq and its military dictator Saddam Hussein to quarantine Islamist fanaticism’s contagious potential to infect a fifth of the world’s population.

The Iran-Iraq War would never have occurred had Jimmy Carter not toppled the Shah. This conflict cost the two nations more than 500,000 lives, including thousands of Iranians killed by Saddam Hussein’s use of chemical weapons.

This costly war encouraged Hussein to acquire an arsenal capable of stopping future “human wave” invasion by his much more populous neighbor Iran. It also laid the groundwork that in 1990 led to Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait and, months later, to Desert Storm. One reason that during that war the U.S. did not depose Saddam Hussein was concern that the resulting “power vacuum” would be filled by Iran’s Ayatollahs.

To summarize, we have Jimmy Carter to thank for more than 600,000 deaths, Iran’s rule by Ayatollahs, the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq’s Invasion of Kuwait and Desert Storm, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, and the mass murder of Americans and destruction of the World Trade Center towers on September 11, 2001.

His every effort since being thrown out by the American people has also been to harm our nation’s friends and give aid and comfort to America’s enemies.

I have already posted on Clinton's disaster as President, which he too was IMPEACHED.

Finally, past history tells us that when Democrat Presidents are in office, they fail badly, their adminstrations lead the next term President into war situations, and regretfully war in many cases. It is proven through our history, that the democrat policies put America in harms way, what we need is a republican in office for 20 years to get everything straightened out, that the democrat Presidents have done to America.

This democrat, John Kerry, doesn't even give us a plan, how could America be so blinded by our past history, we will never be safe again, until republican Presidents are able to fix the damage done to this country over the last 20 years.

Jeffraham Prestonian

wonder: "mind telling me why many of his so-called followers were later found to NOT even be Vietnam vets?"

Do I have to take your word for it? I guess it'd be nice if I would.

Jeffraham Prestonian

wonder: "what we need is a republican in office for 20 years to get everything straightened out"

You wouldn't mind just declaring Bush as Emporer for the next 20 years, would ya? That's real American values, pal.

Phoenician in a time of Romans

Wonders: "I prefer this link Phoenician,
This is what a murderer of America does, and this is where the democrats step in and assist those very murderers with their hate propaganda."

You tell 'em, Wonders! Sand niggers in Iraq are just the same as sand niggers in Afghanistan. We had a perfect right to murder 100,000 Iraqi civilians because 19 hijackers from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen and the Lebenon attacked us.

They're all towelheads, anyhow.

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