Just finished Hardball. Matthews thinks we're going to win. Me, too.
The discussion was heavy on strategy, light on policy. But I enjoyed it. I attributed the President's ultimate victory, when asked for a one-word reason, to his vision.
Comments
His vision - you mean, like how God tells him to do stuff and then he invades a country?
I think Democrats, with good reason, are still worried about the vote due to 2000. Here in Florida we have electronic voting machines with NO paper trail. It is against Florida law, but somehow it made it through. Democrats have been fighting for a paper trail. Can you imagine that? We have to fight for a right to do a possible recount? Combine the current events with the facts from 2000 and there is little reason to enjoy some trust.
It is a shame. I know both sides cut corners and it makes me sick. We really need to press both parties to clean up the system. Synchronize voting standards and ditch the electoral system!!
You are absolutely right.
Bush has a the right vision. He is doing exactly what the world needs to become more peaceful.
If Americans can't see it because they live freely and securely in the United States, we Arabs understand exactly what he is doing and why. We could have never done it by ourselves.
Democracy has always depended on the willingness of the minority to go along with the majority. Al Gore stopped that and created a mythic 2000 victory. And, no, thank you, I don't want to re-fight the 2000 election. Bush won. Barely, but he won.
Ultimately, Mr. Gore's decision will help further the Nationalist cause. Works for me.
Doesn't something seem terribly wrong when a extreme leftist liberal and socialist join together to spend so much of their own money and effort in order to make sure George Bush does not get re-elected? I do not remember in any other election of my time that two so called unpolitical people got so involved in an election.
What would they have to gain? I never hear this ever discussed on any of the tv fox news, cnn, msnbc, etc. stations. I pray that George Bush gets relected because I think John Kerry is a figure head being put in office who has no opinions or integerity of his own, therefore, he can be controlled by George Soros and his cohorts.
forgainst - Oh come on, the votes disqualified were post marked AFTER election day. If you want to disagree with problems in 2000, give me some real facts to prove them. I would be happy to do the same if you want to make a discussion out of it.
>>>>I pray that George Bush gets relected because I think John Kerry is a figure head being put in office who has no opinions or integerity of his own<<<<
Now that is rich. I would love to hear the thought process that brings about that conclusion.
I can't quite see the Republican explanation for Democrats dissatisfaction with the process. Mr. Nationalist is not really on point. Lori Milgiore expresses concern about wealthy donors on the Democratic side, but the Economist poll shows that Republicans have far greater faith in the electoral process, so this view is not dominant.
I think RocketPunch has it fairly right that Florida 2000 is widely viewed by Democrats as an unfair election. Most believe that votes cast for Gore outnumbered votes for Bush. The statistical evidence is quite compelling on that point.
My own view is that Florida this year is pretty much rigged. Regardless of the vote, Florida will go to Bush and Kerry must find his majority in the midwest. I wonder if other Kerry supporters share this fatalism. Note that this isn't fatalism about Kerry support in Florida, where he probably commands the majority. Its fatalism about the corruption of Republican machine in Florida and its distaste for the voting rights of African Americans. Ultimately black voters are the biggest losers in Florida, much more than Kerry or the DNC.
Its very sad that Republicans working on vote suppression down there have so thoroughly repudiated the majestic aspiration of voting rights for all.
Frankly, any Republican indignation at Democrats on the voting process is nothing more than the sound of their glass house shattering.
Bush doesn't deserve reelection. He's betrayed this nation by ignoring the lead up to 9/11, by allowing trumped up and massaged intelligence to get us into Iraq, by botching Iraq completely, by allowing both Zarqawi and Bin Laden to remain free (and it's an allowance...we could have had them both by now) and now the latest debaucle with the explosives at the IAEA site in Iraq going missing.
It's one incompetent mess after another with Bush. And no responsibility taken on their part whatsoever. It's always someone else's fault.
Bush deserves to lose. And it's apparent they can't win without cheating.
--The majority of the population are registered Democrats. So what is your point?--
Democrats, Republicans, doesn't really matter. Kerry and Bush are both Corporate whores. Current trade policies, immigration policies and a dogged determination to shift our wealth - wealth paid for in blood - to other nations will continue regardless of who gets to ride in the Presidential limo.
For Republicans working in Florida: what good are the principles you cherish if you must stifle democracy to win the election.
You must agree that at this time, in the days before an historically important election, the principles of democracy and procedural fairness are paramount. What good are all your other values if you are willing to sacrifice democracy to realize them.
Ron -- Don't worry about the army of Rethugs, challenging votes in poor or minority precincts. There will be counter-thugs, and they've been assured of bail money, too. It'll be funny to see all the ruckus and arrests at the polls, but it will prevent the monkey business the GOP has planned in OH and FL.
.
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
His vision - you mean, like how God tells him to do stuff and then he invades a country?
Posted by: Crawler | October 26, 2004 at 04:27 PM
yep
Posted by: forgainst | October 26, 2004 at 04:29 PM
Republicans and Democrats alike what do you make of this:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_10/004991.php
Democrats have little confidence in the fairness of the electoral process.
Posted by: Ronald Reagan | October 26, 2004 at 04:35 PM
Sounds like a personal problem ...
Posted by: forgainst | October 26, 2004 at 04:38 PM
I think Democrats, with good reason, are still worried about the vote due to 2000. Here in Florida we have electronic voting machines with NO paper trail. It is against Florida law, but somehow it made it through. Democrats have been fighting for a paper trail. Can you imagine that? We have to fight for a right to do a possible recount? Combine the current events with the facts from 2000 and there is little reason to enjoy some trust.
It is a shame. I know both sides cut corners and it makes me sick. We really need to press both parties to clean up the system. Synchronize voting standards and ditch the electoral system!!
Posted by: RocketPunch | October 26, 2004 at 04:42 PM
You are absolutely right.
Bush has a the right vision. He is doing exactly what the world needs to become more peaceful.
If Americans can't see it because they live freely and securely in the United States, we Arabs understand exactly what he is doing and why. We could have never done it by ourselves.
Posted by: Neila Charchour | October 26, 2004 at 04:44 PM
I agree... the democrats getting all those military votes disqualified in Florida in 2000 was awful ...
Posted by: forgainst | October 26, 2004 at 04:47 PM
Democracy has always depended on the willingness of the minority to go along with the majority. Al Gore stopped that and created a mythic 2000 victory. And, no, thank you, I don't want to re-fight the 2000 election. Bush won. Barely, but he won.
Ultimately, Mr. Gore's decision will help further the Nationalist cause. Works for me.
I agree with Matthews. Bush by 4%-5%.
Posted by: Mr. Nationalist | October 26, 2004 at 04:50 PM
Doesn't something seem terribly wrong when a extreme leftist liberal and socialist join together to spend so much of their own money and effort in order to make sure George Bush does not get re-elected? I do not remember in any other election of my time that two so called unpolitical people got so involved in an election.
What would they have to gain? I never hear this ever discussed on any of the tv fox news, cnn, msnbc, etc. stations. I pray that George Bush gets relected because I think John Kerry is a figure head being put in office who has no opinions or integerity of his own, therefore, he can be controlled by George Soros and his cohorts.
Posted by: Lori Migliore | October 26, 2004 at 04:51 PM
forgainst - Oh come on, the votes disqualified were post marked AFTER election day. If you want to disagree with problems in 2000, give me some real facts to prove them. I would be happy to do the same if you want to make a discussion out of it.
Posted by: RocketPunch | October 26, 2004 at 04:59 PM
Mr. Nationalist - The majority of the population are registered Democrats. So what is your point?
Posted by: RocketPunch | October 26, 2004 at 05:01 PM
I don't owe you an explanation ... and if you don't like it TDB ...
Posted by: forgaisnt | October 26, 2004 at 05:05 PM
>>>>I pray that George Bush gets relected because I think John Kerry is a figure head being put in office who has no opinions or integerity of his own<<<<
Now that is rich. I would love to hear the thought process that brings about that conclusion.
Posted by: RocketPunch | October 26, 2004 at 05:06 PM
forgaisnt - well, that is one way to avoid having to back up your words with facts. That's fine by me. It is to be expected, I am sorry to say.
Posted by: RocketPunch | October 26, 2004 at 05:09 PM
RP yep ... fine by me too
Posted by: forgainst | October 26, 2004 at 05:17 PM
I can't quite see the Republican explanation for Democrats dissatisfaction with the process. Mr. Nationalist is not really on point. Lori Milgiore expresses concern about wealthy donors on the Democratic side, but the Economist poll shows that Republicans have far greater faith in the electoral process, so this view is not dominant.
I think RocketPunch has it fairly right that Florida 2000 is widely viewed by Democrats as an unfair election. Most believe that votes cast for Gore outnumbered votes for Bush. The statistical evidence is quite compelling on that point.
My own view is that Florida this year is pretty much rigged. Regardless of the vote, Florida will go to Bush and Kerry must find his majority in the midwest. I wonder if other Kerry supporters share this fatalism. Note that this isn't fatalism about Kerry support in Florida, where he probably commands the majority. Its fatalism about the corruption of Republican machine in Florida and its distaste for the voting rights of African Americans. Ultimately black voters are the biggest losers in Florida, much more than Kerry or the DNC.
Its very sad that Republicans working on vote suppression down there have so thoroughly repudiated the majestic aspiration of voting rights for all.
Posted by: Ronald Reagan | October 26, 2004 at 05:27 PM
It's not just speculation that Republicans are working to surpress the vote in Florida. There's proof:
http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/2004/10/oopsthey_did_it.html
Frankly, any Republican indignation at Democrats on the voting process is nothing more than the sound of their glass house shattering.
Bush doesn't deserve reelection. He's betrayed this nation by ignoring the lead up to 9/11, by allowing trumped up and massaged intelligence to get us into Iraq, by botching Iraq completely, by allowing both Zarqawi and Bin Laden to remain free (and it's an allowance...we could have had them both by now) and now the latest debaucle with the explosives at the IAEA site in Iraq going missing.
It's one incompetent mess after another with Bush. And no responsibility taken on their part whatsoever. It's always someone else's fault.
Bush deserves to lose. And it's apparent they can't win without cheating.
Posted by: Carla | October 26, 2004 at 05:35 PM
--The majority of the population are registered Democrats. So what is your point?--
Democrats, Republicans, doesn't really matter. Kerry and Bush are both Corporate whores. Current trade policies, immigration policies and a dogged determination to shift our wealth - wealth paid for in blood - to other nations will continue regardless of who gets to ride in the Presidential limo.
Posted by: Mr. Nationalist | October 26, 2004 at 05:43 PM
For Republicans working in Florida: what good are the principles you cherish if you must stifle democracy to win the election.
You must agree that at this time, in the days before an historically important election, the principles of democracy and procedural fairness are paramount. What good are all your other values if you are willing to sacrifice democracy to realize them.
Posted by: Ronald Reagan | October 26, 2004 at 05:47 PM
Ron -- Don't worry about the army of Rethugs, challenging votes in poor or minority precincts. There will be counter-thugs, and they've been assured of bail money, too. It'll be funny to see all the ruckus and arrests at the polls, but it will prevent the monkey business the GOP has planned in OH and FL.
.
Posted by: Jeffraham Prestonian | October 26, 2004 at 05:56 PM
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Posted by: The Rev. Jerry Gloryhole | October 26, 2004 at 05:57 PM
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Posted by: The Rev. Jerry Gloryhole | October 26, 2004 at 05:57 PM
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Posted by: The Rev. Jerry Gloryhole | October 26, 2004 at 05:58 PM
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Posted by: The Rev. Jerry Gloryhole | October 26, 2004 at 05:59 PM
Silly "Ronald Reagan"...
That is, of course, the vision of Bush in a nutshell. What good is democracy if the results don't agree with the commands of the Almighty?
If you had the Lord's voice in your head like the president does you'd be singing a different tune.
Let's hope it's not actually an AM station coming through his fillings.
Posted by: The Rev. Jerry Gloryhole | October 26, 2004 at 05:59 PM