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RocketPunch

Virginia - I was asking for you to give me a specific so I don't type a crazy long email on all subjects. I believe, without distortions, Kerry is free from contradiction. The biggest example is how Bush hammers him on his defense record. Allow me to repost something I put together yesterday. It is long, I am sorry - but it saves time and offers all the facts on Kerry's record on defense. It also proves a point about distortion of political issues.

Here is a quote for you.

"After completing 20 planes for which we have begun procurement, we will shut down further production of the B-2 bomber. We will cancel the small ICBM program. We will cease production of new warheads for our sea-based ballistic missiles. We will stop all new production of the Peacekeeper [MX] missile. And we will not purchase any more advanced cruise missiles. . The reductions I have approved will save us an additional $50 billion over the next five years. By 1997 we will have cut defense by 30 percent since I took office."

Who said this? The speaker was President George H.W. Bush, the current president's father, in his State of the Union address on Jan. 28, 1992.

Here is another.

"Overall, since I've been Secretary, we will have taken the five-year defense program down by well over $300 billion. That's the peace dividend. . And now we're adding to that another $50 billion of so-called peace dividend."

This is testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee from Dick Cheney, the first President Bush's secretary of defense. Cheney proceeded to lay into the then-Democratically controlled Congress for refusing to cut more weapons systems.

"Congress has let me cancel a few programs. But you've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements. You've directed me to buy more M-1s, F-14s, and F-16s-all great systems . but we have enough of them."

"The Army, as I indicated in my earlier testimony, recommended to me that we keep a robust Apache helicopter program going forward, AH-64; . . . I forced the Army to make choices. I said, "You can't have all three. We don't have the money for all three." So I recommended that we cancel the AH-64 program two years out. That would save $1.6 billion in procurement and $200 million in spares over the next five years."

You might also want to take notice to Gen. Colin Powell, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at the same hearings, testifying about plans to cut Army divisions by one-third, Navy aircraft carriers by one-fifth, and active armed forces by half a million men and women, to say noting of "major reductions" in fighter wings and strategic bombers.

Granted, these reductions were made in the wake of the Soviet Union's dissolution and the Cold War's demise. But that's just the point: Proposed cuts must be examined in context. The Bush administration are betting people WON'T look further into their talking points. Sadly, most people don't bother. A vote against a particular weapons system doesn't necessarily indicate indifference toward national defense.

Now ... on to Kerry ...

Looking at the weapons that the RNC says Kerry voted to cut, a good case could be made, certainly at the time, that some of them (the B-2 bomber and President Reagan's "Star Wars" missile-defense program) should have been cut. As for the others (the M-1 tank and the F-14, F-15, and F-16 fighter planes, among others), Kerry didn't really vote to cut them.

The claim about these votes was made in the Republican National Committee "Research Briefing" of Feb. 22. The report lists 13 weapons systems that Kerry voted to cut-the ones cited above, as well as Patriot air-defense missiles, Tomahawk cruise missiles, and AH64 Apache helicopters, among others.It is instructive, however, to look at the footnotes. Almost all of them cite Kerry's vote on Senate bill S. 3189 (CQ Vote No. 273) on Oct. 15, 1990. Do a Google search, and you will learn that S. 3189 was the Fiscal Year 1991 Defense Appropriations Act, and CQ Vote No. 273 was a vote on the entire bill. There was no vote on those weapons systems specifically.

On a couple of the weapons, the RNC report cites H.R. 5803 and H.R. 2126. Look those up. They turn out to be votes on the House-Senate conference committee reports for the defense appropriations bills in October 1990 (the same year as S. 3189) and September 1995. In other words, Kerry was one of 16 senators (including five Republicans) to vote against a defense appropriations bill 14 years ago. He was also one of an unspecified number of senators to vote against a conference report on a defense bill nine years ago. The RNC takes these facts and extrapolates from them that he voted against a dozen weapons systems that were in those bills.

Another bit of dishonesty is RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie's claim that in 1995, Kerry voted to cut $1.5 billion from the intelligence budget. John Pike, who runs the globalsecurity.org Web site, said that the cut was about: The Air Force's National Reconnaissance Office had appropriated that much money to operate a spy satellite that, as things turned out, it never launched. So the Senate passed an amendment rescinding the money-not to cancel a program, but to get a refund on a program that the NRO had canceled. Kerry voted for the amendment, as did a majority of the senate.

An examination of Kerry's real voting record during his 20 years in the Senate indicates that he did vote to restrict or cut certain weapons systems. From 1989-92, he supported amendments to halt production of the B-2 stealth bomber. (In 1992, George H.W. Bush halted it himself.) It is true that the B-2 came in handy during the recent war in Iraq-but for reasons having nothing to do with its original rationale. The B-2 came into being as an airplane that would drop nuclear bombs on the Soviet Union. The program was very controversial at the time. It was extremely expensive. Its stealth technology had serious technical bugs. More to the point, a grand debate was raging in defense circles at the time over whether, in an age of intercontinental ballistic missiles and long-range cruise missiles, the United States needed any new bomber that would fly into the Soviet Union's heavily defended airspace. The debate was not just between hawks and doves; advocates and critics could be found among both. In the latest war, B-2s-modified to carry conventional munitions-were among the planes that dropped smart bombs on Iraq. But that was like hopping in the Lincoln stretch limo to drop Grandma off at church. As for the other stealth plane used in both Iraq wars-the F-117, which was designed for non-nuclear missions-there is no indication that Kerry ever opposed it.

The RNC doesn't mention it, but Kerry also supported amendments to limit (but not kill) funding for President Reagan's fanciful (and eventually much-altered) "Star Wars" missile-defense system. Kerry sponsored amendments to ban tests of anti-satellite weapons, as long as the Soviet Union also refrained from testing. In retrospect, trying to limit the vulnerability of satellites was a very good idea since many of our smart bombs are guided to their targets by signals from satellites.

Kerry also voted for amendments to restrict the deployment of the MX missile (Reagan changed its deployment plan several times, and Bush finally stopped the program altogether) and to ban the production of nerve-gas weapons.

At the same time, in 1991, Kerry opposed an amendment to impose an arbitrary 2 percent cut in the military budget. In 1992, he opposed an amendment to cut Pentagon intelligence programs by $1 billion. In 1994, he voted against a motion to cut $30.5 billion from the defense budget over the next five years and to redistribute the money to programs for education and the disabled. That same year, he opposed an amendment to postpone construction of a new aircraft carrier. In 1996, he opposed a motion to cut six F-18 jet fighters from the budget. In 1999, he voted against a motion to terminate the Trident II missile. (Interestingly, the F-18 and Trident II are among the weapons systems that the RNC claims Kerry opposed.)

From FAQCHECK.ORG

Kerry voted for Pentagon authorization bills in 16 of the 19 years he's been in the Senate. So even by the Bush campaign's twisted logic, Kerry should -- on balance -- be called a supporter of the "vital" weapons, more so than an opponent.

Sorry it is so long - but I wanted to make sure all the bases were covered. :)

4babies

Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps.
President Dubya Bush: Finally a man that leads with real issues. Check out the reality of partial birth murder. Btw, check out how abortion hurts women as well as preborn babes. Babies die and women cry.
The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.

The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.

The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the hole...

The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.

Virginia

what???? take a chill pill, man. It's clear he hasn't changed his position. He's against discriminating against gays having the benefit of a civil union and he would like for it to be a state matter, but he doesn't trust activist judges not to legislate from the bench. He believes "marriage" is between a man and a woman, period, and if it's necessary he will push for a constitutional amendment saying so, but I don't doubt he'd rather not.

Hetero

So, now we finally discover that Dubya is a homo-lover.

We should have known. I have felt very funny about this ever since I discovered that he was a cheerleader in college.

Virginia

RocketPunch, I appreciate the effort, but like I said, I am a military dependent and I know what's happened within the system. My dad is military, my husband's dad is military, my husband and my brother are military - there's no quote on earth of Kerry's that is going to convince me that he's strong on defense. Clinton was strong on defense compared to Kerry (of course that probably doesn't mean anything to you in reality).

I base this on experience, not what someone has said. I can tell you this, there's a huge chance that my husband would consider leaving the military before retirement before risking what Kerry would do internationally that would affect us, and don't believe for a second that Kerry is going "add" 40,000 troops if he's president. Trained military combatants will be seeking to bail and Kerry will have to "add" more than that in whatever manner he says he won't or will.

Hetero

And don't forget-- they are paying Mary Cheney big bucks for her services as a professional Lesbian.

Where's Ken Mehlman, anyway?

RocketPunch

Virginia - With all due respect, don't you see the flaw in your logic here? You insist that no matter what Kerry says - he is weak on defense. I posted his record because his record shows just the opposite. These are facts - they are not words or ideas. If you can't base reality on that then what do you have but your gut? And if you say to me "my gut tells me Bush is better" that is fine by me. I actually understand that. But to say that Kerry hasn't shown strength is just outside of the facts.

Now I ask you - what is it about Bush that makes you believe he is so very strong? Factually, his record does not support that case. He has been wrong on so many levels but refuses to admit he has made any mistakes. As for Iraq, the facts paint a picture the would tell us the Bush Administration does not have a solid understanding of the middle east. If this were the case, he and his administration would not have been so horribly wrong on everything from claiming we would be greated with "flowers and sweets" to "WMD" to "Oil paying for the rebuild". Instead of talking to the experts, the Bush White House decided to listen to Ahmed Chalabi who admits he lied because "The ends justify the means". Now today most experts agree that the U.S. invading of Iraq was the greatest gift to Bin Laden. It is no secret that Bin Laden had been preaching in the middle east that the U.S. wanted to invade an oil rich country. No matter our true reason, we invaded an oil rich country! As a result the number of terrorists in the world has grown FAR beyond what it was in the past. The Duelfer Report clearly shows that Saddam, no matter his personal desires, was contained and NOT a threat to anyone in any significant way.

worried

dear 4babies,
Please consider voting for the Democrats.
During the Clinton administration, the number of abortions decreased every year over the previous year. During the Bush Administration, the number of abortions INCREASED every year over the previous year.

Roe v. Wade came down during the Nixon Administration.

Reagan signed the law Liberalizing abortion as governor of California.

George Bush has made the abortion problem worse.

RocketPunch

Worried - to elaborate, Bush cut back on all birth control programs and favored a Faith based abstinence program which does not work, as reflected in the increase in the number of abortions.

But, when it comes to abortion, it boils down to religion with most people, not facts or the civil rights.

Virginia

Okay, RocketPunch, point taken (even though every vote and decision he makes appear to be for political appearance) so why, if Kerry's record is so strong does he keep going back to how he defended this country as a young man, which is highly questionable? Why does he talk in circles and why won't he admit he made mistakes in calling his fellow soldiers war criminals. Please don't try to tell me he was just summarizing either because the damage done to those men is very real and if the damage their truth could do to Kerry wasn't real, why does Kerry keep trying to silence them?

As for Bush's strengths, I've already stated I agree with his tax and economic policies, I agree with his "culture of life" policies, and as far as decisions on the war, well hindsight is a great benefit - if only we had it in advance. Politics alone are a good enough reason not to admit mistakes and for any leader to focus on past mistakes would paralyze them. President Bush is aware of what he's done wrong, but he doesn't need the world to be his confessional. He's making adjustments and I simply trust him with my husband's future more than Kerry.

Everyone thought the same of Reagan that they think of Bush, but history has proven Reagan was right (in a majority of the country's opinion).

RocketPunch

Virginia - During a Meet the Press interview earlier in the year Kerry did say he regretted some of the things he said and the language he used. (After all, he was only in his 20's) However, his message was the same. There WERE War Crimes then as there are now. It is a horrible side-effect of war and it is important that people take a stand against them to make the world a better place.

I would love to get into more but I must go. It has been nice talking to you. You are the first person on here who has not attacked and name-called. I respect your opinion and maybe we can talk again soon.

For now, I have to turn off the political switch and get some work done. :)

Virginia

Of course, if you doubt the left's opinion, go to those who really know the state of things - they're endorsing President Bush.

http://www.nrlc.org/

http://blackgenocide.org/

If abortions are up under this administration it's because the butchers are successfully convincing the courts not to cut their paychecks.

Virginia

RocketPunch - thanks and DITTO :o)

Jeffraham Prestonian

Virginia: "why won't he admit he made mistakes in calling his fellow soldiers war criminals."

Let me see if I can show the difference between "representation" and "accusation."

Accusation: [Group XYZ] are wrongdoers!

Representation: I met with [Group XYZ], and they told me of their wrongdoing, and of wrongdoing they witnessed. They were so concerned about the wrongdoing, they asked me to come here to speak to you about it, in hopes that it can be stopped.

Do you see the difference, Virginia?
.

changing my vote

Bush has failed to reduce abortions during every year of his presidency?

And Clinton succeeded during every year of his?

liberalpatriot

Hmmm, let's review that Drudge scoop that you guys are so excited about.

So, it seems that someone has tracked down that NBC embed, and the reporter says that the soldiers didn't inspect anything. The reporter referred to the whole experience as a "pit stop."

How do you explain your press secretary's assertion in yesterday's gaggle that the munitions went missing after the invasion, not before the invasion? He mentioned it four different times.

Drudge Report. Denied.

Virginia

Read about Steve Pitkin and the Winter Soldiers about 2/3 of the way down on the page. John Kerry was looking for people to accuse the soldiers to make his case.

http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/

I'm not going to argue points of view. It is my view that John Kerry is a user of people - poor, disabled, black, veteran, whatever - for political benefit. If you've read "Unfit for Command" and/or watched "Stolen Honor"

http://www.stolenhonor.com/index.asp

and still feel the way do, it's your call. If you make your stand without watching or reading, we have nothing to talk about.

Jeffraham Prestonian

Virginia -- Cool. I don't want to confuse anyone with facts they don't want to hear.
.

Gen. JC Christian, patriot

Tom Delay wanted to go to Vietnam, but couldn't because minorities took all he spots.

"He and Quayle, DeLay explained to the assembled media in New Orleans, were victims of an unusual phenomenon back in the days of the undeclared Southeast Asian war. So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
http://slate.msn.com/id/1002713/

Damn affirmative action.

Go Dubya

John Kerry represents all that is wrong with our culture and soceity. He is so crooked that he cannot keep his own stories straight. He is also less of a man in my eyes since he lives off his wife's former dead husband who was a Republican.The entire Heinz family were Republican and their fortune was accumulated through several generations. In other words, he enjoys the Republican money every day but attacks the Republicans every day also.
John Kerry is a coward. He changed his views several times during his campaign, voting for and against the troops because he was afraid of Howard Dean. He definitely lost his balls 37 years ago and now has none to be able to face the terrorists. He wants to hide behind France in the war. Unfortunately, France wouldn't lend him a hand. Even though Kerry considers himself to be part french.If Kerry had his way we would still be debating the problems in the mideast while they planned and plotted another attack. Kerry would probably be still in "to be or not to be" mode.He calls it intellectual. Well I would rather have the hands-on Bush Cheney team who would take action to protect us rather than an impotent so-called intellectual who is more concerned about Botox than taking decisive action in a dangerous world.John Kerry preys on peoples discontent. Typical lawyer tactic. Does anybody trust two lawyers on the ticket ? John Kerry and Edwards both rattlesnakes, I mean lawyers. But this time it won't get him anywhere. In the final analysis people will search deep into their soul and vote for the man who is real.The man who may not have a fancy exterior but has a sincere heart and good intentions. He may not make all the right moves but his dedication and steadfastness and faith will win him the victory. I am talking about our President George W Bush. Go DUBYA. FOUR MORE YEARS.

NoHurryInMissouri

Virginia,

I believe you may be confusing "...watching or reading..." as to mean "agree with". We can most certainly watch and read, but not agree, and still engage in spirited debate regarding each others view.

Seeing your posts, I know you didn't intend to limit opposing views, but that's how it came across, respectively.

NoHurryInMissouri

Go easy, Dubya. We hear you. As a matter of fact, we've heard it verbatim for months. You're a good soldier for your party.

Perhaps you could contribute something new, or in a different light other than the tired marching chant of the minority on the 'right'?

So far, debate on this site has been better than most. Civil, informative, and enlightening.

Try it. You'll like it

faith

Virginia,
I've always felt that reading the Bible myself was a lot better than not reading it and relying on some person to tell me what it says. Don't you agree?

Here's a link to the Winter Soldier transcripts plus a lot more that the Winter Soldier hearings got into. Please read it for yourself.

http://snipurl.com/66li

Also, it seems that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are not reliable. For instance, they concealed the fact that not a single one of them were present at the events Kerry was cited for.

I'm sure you are interested in learning as much as you can about what we're all dealing with here.
Can I recommend 'Going Upriver', a new movie just out on DVD? I saw it last night and I thought it was pretty good.

Many many people are beginning to realize that they've been swindled by George Bush. I've come to believe that he is a false Christian and is not a Conservative at all, but is instead some kind of radical. I'm not enthusiastic about Kerry, but I believe his election will be a step toward a return to moderation and normalcy.

DAS

Faith-- I am with you on this one. Given the president's flip-flops on Gay marriage (he is now in favor of civil unions which he has said he is firmly against) and abortion (the number of abortions have gone up during his term in office, indicating that he is not sincere about tackling the issue in its fullest form)

I have to assume the president puts his faith on when it is politically convenient.

RocketPunch

Faith - Going Upriver is a good snapshot of the time and interesting for those of us to young to remember the events of the time. Anyone of you can view it for free at

http://www.kerrysupport.com/upriver

Then go out and buy the DVD to support the filmmaker. :)

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